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Writing academic papers in Org-Roam

Vincent Conus (he/him) - Pronunciation: vɪnsᵊnt koʊnᵊs, IRC: sunoc, Mastodon: @sunoc@social.linux.pizza, vincent.conus@pm.me

Format: 11-min talk ; Q&A: BigBlueButton conference room
Status: TO_CAPTION_QA

Talk

00:00.000 Introduction
00:20.130 What?
01:21.377 Why?
02:16.215 Challenges
03:35.320 Basic Org to PDF
04:08.061 How to LaTeX properly, though?
04:32.304 LaTeX-specific headers
04:54.625 Using a formatting class file
05:31.395 Using a different LaTeX command
06:13.138 References links for bibliography
07:09.720 Examples
07:41.240 Tags

Duration: 10:07 minutes

Q&A

01:23.160 Q: I'd be interested how to start this journey of writing academic papers in Org-Roam when not having used Emacs Org-Mode yet? Thanks! 02:35.840 Q: How about connecting Emacs Org-Roam to Zotero? Is that something you have experience with? 02:55.600 Q: Out of curiosity, how do you manage your bibliography? Do you do it from inside Emacs, or using a separate program like Zotero? 06:22.600 Q: How do you start a new document? 07:41.720 Q: What do you think of using citar with org-roam-bibtex? 09:26.320 Q: Most academic journals insist that papers are formatted in their own custom LaTeX documentclass. Does org-roam make it easy to do that? 14:21.160 Q: Are you using zotra or org-ref? 14:45.120 Q: How much of this is tied to org-roam specifically?

Listen to just the audio:

Duration: 19:01 minutes

Description

Org-mode and more so org-roam are making for a fantastic note-taking system inside Emacs. Combining the note-taking of org-mode, the capability to export a note to LaTeX and PDF directly, the spectacular org-roam-bibtex package and the flexibility of the elisp configuration of Emacs, it become possible to use a org-roam note as the main document for write academic papers, even when exotic templates are provided.

In this presentation, I want to talk about the way I am using org-roam to write LaTeX documents, the benefits of it but also the various pitfalls and difficulties encountered in this journey.

The key benefits being:

The integration with other org-roam notes.
Bibliography integration and links directly to PDF.
Org-mode literate programming capabilities.
Direct export to PDF.

The main challenges are:

Dealing with strangely formatted LaTeX templates.
Related, having to use other LaTeX compilers.
These two points can make citation of references, in particular, challenging.

About the speaker:

A PhD student in robotics at Nanzan University, Japan. I have been using Linux for around 10 years at that point, eventually moving many of my work and personal stuff to Emacs over the years, including academic writing.

Discussion

Questions and answers

Q: how do you convince your coauthors to use emacs?
- (not yet answered)
Q: I'd be interested how to start this journey of writing academic papers in Org-Roam when not having used Emacs Org-Mode yet? Thanks!
- A: I saw this one before and I guess it would be possible to do that, to use Org documents only as the way that you are writing papers. Maybe you can just use that as a template that you're going to export. If you are familiar with LaTeX, it's going to be more useful, and maybe more convenient to work with inside of Emacs. But then I'm not 100% sure if that's... How do you say that? Maybe, in my opinion, the benefits of using org-roam in that setup is that you can link the things. For me, I'm using the search function for org-roam to just navigate between the files. So that's really some, a good advantage, but like, yeah, that could be, like Leo said in the presentation, that's some, maybe that's something you can start using org-mode with to write papers. So yeah.
  - Agreed on opinion of working in org vs LaTeX
Q: How about connecting Emacs Org-Roam to Zotero? Is that something you have experience with?
- A: You could export your bibliography from Zotero to bibtex.
- Tip: check out the Better Bibtex plugin and its handly \"Keep updated\" option - I do this selecting biblio.bib file in roam folder as target
Q: Out of curiosity, how do you manage your bibliography? Do you do it from inside Emacs, or using a separate program like Zotero? Because personally, I have struggled to do it from Emacs, although I have wanted to for sometime. I see, then I am just lazy and don\'t want to do it by hand -_-
- A: So the way I manage that is I just have a couple of .bib files that I edit by hand, where I put the reference when I find them. And yeah, I just showed very briefly in the presentation, but the way. One of the great thing with the org reference system is that if you have your bibliographic files that are connected to that system, you can just like, you can put the link, the reference to the paper, like click on it from your org note, and then you can open the PDF. You can open the DOI link to open the whatever publisher page. So no, I don't use Zotero and I just edit bib or bib files by hand in Emacs.
  - I understand the appeal for having it integrated in the browser. Maybe that's something I should look up, actually, because right now I just like doing it very much by hand, like going on the publisher page and copying the bibtex block and just using putting that in my file. Yes, it can be not a very efficient workflow on that side. But after that, you're having the PDF and having it inside the note.
Q: How do you start a new document? There are a lot of headers you have to setup! Do you use a template? I'm curious if they use yasnippets to deal with all of those latex/org meta commands? (IRC: gringo)
- A: At present, not using snippets (but considering). Currently re-uses previous doc as template. There's reconciling template received from the journal/publisher.
Q: What do you think of using citar with org-roam-bibtex? It seems that bibtex-completion is tied to org-roam-bibtex.
- A: Has not explored citar. I am pretty sure org-roam-bibtex works with citar.
Q: Most academic journals insist that papers are formatted in their own custom LaTeX documentclass. Does org-roam make it easy to do that? (jmd)
- A: No. Makes a custom org latex class, to the import the cls; then putting the template provided in the headers of the document, or as needed in the body block. Then there\'s manual adaption. When using LaTeX, you care much about the output of the document; each domain/field of research has its own flavour of expectations.
Q: Are you using zotra (https://github.com/mpedramfar/zotra) or org-ref ?
- Never heard of it. That's something I'm going to have to look into.
Q: How much of this is tied to org-roam specifically?
- Not that much

Notes

Presentation org notes formatted for org-present: https://gitlab.com/sunoc/emacsconf-2024-presentation
Thank you for this! I am using org to export my CV, and had to figure out a few of these things. Lots of new bits for me to explore.
Thanks, good presentation.
Those exports look awesome
Nice demo, thanks!
How'd he get that image on the right page?
I wonder if work has been done to export an ODT document with citations in zotero's format
Yeah, that's what I enjoy about citations, It's a sort of universal link.
I wonder how much LaTeX experience is wrapped up in that export process
The problem-solving aspect of tinkering with Emacs is a boon.
The reference management that Vincent demo'd comes from org integration. You wouldn't have that functionality with bare LaTeX/Typst, etc.
Org to typst converstion: https://github.com/jmpunkt/ox-typst
One way I've seen to go about headers is having a template file: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qHloGTT8XE that you can import with a "#+SETUPFILE:" line
- Then you just override the document specific stuff right gs-101? In that case a snippet would come in handy
- Yes, for packages not featured in the template I just add them to the file with "#+latex_header:"
Maybe down the line we can make ties with LLMs to translate styles
IIRC pandoc also now has tools to do the conversion. I don't know how good that is though.
It's a good point. I think a lot of people use org mode as their default document editing syntax, so being able to use the same syntax for your papers instead of switching contexts to latex is helpful
The reference management that Vincent demo'd comes from org integration. You wouldn't have that functionality with bare LaTeX/Typst, etc.
AFAIK, pandoc converts everything to an intermediate format, so you do lose some information.
i come from latex originally, before i started trying to do everything from org, so i recognize how powerful latex is. typst is just not there yet at all.
- mainly started learning typst as i orginally started with latex but got overwealmed
as long as you don't have typesetting software specific code in your org file, sure
I learned LaTeX just to write good looking math in Org notes lol
for journals, you usually need appropriate documentclass. That does not require org-roam. Just Org itself
Thanks Vincent! work in progress
just got this in mind when reading here about typst https://xkcd.com/927/
I also have the video saved in the bibliography, so I can go to the file by just opening the citation link.
I'll check out Zotra now, seems really interesting. better.
Thanks for sharing your techniques Vincent!

Transcript

[00:00:00.000] Introduction

Okay. Hi, everyone. My name is Vincent. I'm a PhD student in Nanzan University, Japan. Today I'm going to present to you how I'm using Org notes and Org Roam to write academic papers. The slides I'm going to present here are available in the Git repository, so you can check them later if you want to.

[00:00:20.130] What?

Firstly what are we talking about here? So in general, it's possible, if you have any Org nodes, to export them as LaTeX. Given some extra configuration, it's possible, basically, to reproduce any LaTeX setup that you would use to create documents with an Org file. In my case, I'm using that system to take some notes that I have in my org-roam system and to export that into finished academic papers that you can submit eventually to a conference and so on. Actually, before I submit that proposal, after I submit that proposal, I just noticed that Mike Hamrick in last year's EmacsConf made a very extensive presentation about org export. But in here, I just want to showcase my usage of org-roam and to present what are the configuration I'm using to be able to achieve that. Why do that?

[00:01:21.377] Why?

In general, like I said, I'm using that as part of my writing system, so in having org-roam notes that can be exported as a document make for a great workflow in my opinion. It makes Org even more versatile, so if you use that for maybe writing code in the literate programming, now you're going to be also able to export that into any format you want. The Org notes are very clean. In my opinion, it looks better to work in Org rather than editing LaTeX code directly. The centralized bibliography system is also great because it allows to have just a few notes that you can reference everywhere and have links to them. Of course everything is happening inside of Emacs so you have access to all the tools you are used to like Magit or Projectile and whatnot.

[00:02:16.215] Challenges

However, to quote one of the funniest recent video about Emacs: "[With LaTeX,] I used to spend hours trying to get the image on the right page. Now I use Org Mode LaTeX and just accept it's impossible." Like all the jokes in that video, it lands in very well because there is some truth to that in that with that system you are not getting rid of the complexity of LaTeX, so if you have problems, you're going to have to deal with the very long logs. It's a layer on top of LaTeX, so if you need to debug your configuration, if you want to adjust something specific, you would need to be proficient in LaTeX and also in being very at ease with your Emacs configuration. The way to use the Org export is less documented than using LaTeX so if you want to implement something, probably it's going to be described in pure LaTeX, and then you're going to need to adjust that to make it work inside your Org files. I explained before that the bibliography system is great, although it's very picky on the way it works, especially to be exported. Depending on the template you are using, you might run into issues with some packages that are in conflict, so there is that to be taken in mind.

[00:03:35.320] Basic Org to PDF

In general, if you have a Org note, you can simply export it with a C-c C-e and l o with the menu that appears. I can show that briefly: C-e, then you have the menu. You can select l and o to export. That works very well. In general, with that, you are able to deal with everything that you have in your normal Org notes. If you have images, tables, links, it's going to be exported in a way that looks decent. That's what we are starting with.

[00:04:08.061] How to LaTeX properly, though?

However, if you want to make a publication, if you have a template that you receive from a conference or whatnot, you want to be able to adapt your Org notes to be able to export it exactly the way you want. I'm going to present the four points that I'm showing here that are, for me, the elements that you need to be careful with when you try to work with templates and exporting to LaTeX.

[00:04:32.304] LaTeX-specific headers

Firstly, you have headers. So basically, this allows to add LaTeX elements that are going to be at the top of the file. You're going to have the title. You're going to have your extra packages here. You're going to have your class. I'm going to present that later. That's the part that you're going to adjust to make it look like the .tex template that you receive.

[00:04:54.625] Using a formatting class file

Then you have the formatting class file. That's a .cls file that you would receive as a part of the template. This one is used instead of the typical doc class like article. The way I'm using them is to add an entry, like add an element to the list or get a class in my Emacs init. This way I can use the CLS file directly and also give the parameters that I want. In that case, I'm going to have a apris.cls next to my Org note, and it's going to be able to to use it.

[00:05:31.395] Using a different LaTeX command

A third element is, in some cases, you might want to use a different LaTeX compiler to build your project, to build your notes. That can be done per file, per note, in my opinion, that's the most flexible way, by editing, by adding this line as the very first line of your file and thus changing the LaTeX PDF process variable. And in there, you can put multiple commands in a row. For example you can have the shell escape to have the minted note block, the BibTeX element, so that works very well. When you add that, you need to reload your file, though. Something to keep in mind.

[00:06:13.138] References links for bibliography

Lastly, you have the bibliography. When you have a reference, when you want to put a reference, you can use the org-roam-bibtex package that needs to be installed. Then you have some configuration to to be set so you have the bibtex compilation bibliography, where you explain where is your your reference file, your bib file. You can also give a path for where to search for PDFs. If you have matching names with your BibTeX entries and some PDF files in there, they're going to be linked. I'm going to show that later. So that's something that's going to be part of your init configuration as part of the org-roam-bibtex package configuration. Then in the node you are exporting, you want to add a section called reference. Here you can set a style for the bibliography. Again you put which of the reference file you want to use.

[00:07:09.720] Examples

With all of that, I'm going to show some examples. Here I have an Org note that I used as the file to be exported into a publication. You can see up front, I set all my headers package. I have some extra package I put. I have the class that is something that is next to it. You can see in the files, I have the apris.cls just here.

[00:07:41.240] Tags

Also, with all of that, you can also add tags. I didn't explain that, but you can also ignore some sections. That's quite convenient as well. Here we have some section, and if you want to add a bibliography, you're going to do c l cite:, you can put some cite entry, put any file in there, no description, and you're going to put some link like that. It's very convenient because, firstly, it's going to be exported as a reference like I'm going to show later, but also it gives you access to it directly from the note. If I click the thing here, I have some menu, I can open the bibliography page. I can also open the PDF that was linked to it. If I do that, here is the file that pops up that was linked to the bibliography. That's great. Otherwise, within that document, you're going to have other things you can have. Figures with parameters set on top, footnotes as well if that's something that you need. For example, here it's a section that's not exported, but you can have your normal footnotes. We can go back and forth. If they are in the exported section, they're going to be managed. So with that, you can export the notes. You're going to C-c C-e so you have that menu for exporting Org files. You do l for LaTeX and then o for running directly as PDF and opening it. It takes a little while to build. Here we are. The templates have been used, so there is a two-column situation happening, we have a specific header format and figures and the citation that we put. It's happening, it's shown here, and it's also going to be visible at the end in the reference section. Like I said, a fully ready, finished paper can be produced this way. That's all that I had for today. Thank you very much for your attention. I am available for questions on IRC or in the video chat. Thank you.

Captioner: sachac

Q&A transcript (unedited)

... mentally over the next couple of days, but I can assure you that it will be many organizers in the background also working. You'll probably get to see us later on. But for now, without further ado, I want to say hi to Vincent. Hi, Vincent. Hi, thanks for having me. Yeah, and thanks for coming and thanks for presenting. I mean, you didn't decide to go first. It's mostly the time zone for you which decided for you because I believe you are in Japan, correctly. Yeah, exactly. So I'm living there now and it's very late. It's really funny to see everyone saying good morning in the chat. It's always the same for me. So personally, I'm in France. So for me, it's only 3 p.m. For you, it's probably 9 or 10 p.m. if I'm correct. Already 11 here, yeah. It's already 11, so thank you for staying up so late for us. And how about we just get started with the questions because you've just presented something that is very dear to my heart, which is writing academic paper with Org Mode, which is, for the record, how I got started with Org Roam and stuff like this. So, unless you've got anything else to add on top of your presentation that wasn't able to fit in, I suggest we just start taking questions. All right. So yeah, right now I'm reading the question from IRC and also from the pad. So I guess I'm gonna take what's already written there.

[00:01:23.160] Q: I'd be interested how to start this journey of writing academic papers in Org-Roam when not having used Emacs Org-Mode yet? Thanks!

So the first one is asking, I'd be interested in how to start this journey to write academic paper in org-roam when not having used Emacs org mode yet. So I saw this one before and I guess it would be possible to do that, to use Org documents only as the way that you are writing papers. Maybe you can just use that as a template that you're going to export. If you are familiar with LaTeX, it's going to be more useful, and maybe more convenient to work with inside of Emacs. But then I'm not 100% sure if that's... How do you say that? Maybe, in my opinion, the benefits of using org-roam in that setup is that you can link the things. For me, I'm using the search function for org-roam to just navigate between the files. So that's really some, a good advantage, but like, yeah, that could be, like Leo said in the presentation, that's some, maybe that's something you can start using org-mode with to write papers. So yeah.

[00:02:35.840] Q: How about connecting Emacs Org-Roam to Zotero? Is that something you have experience with?

Second question. So how about connecting Emacs or Roam to Zotero? Is that something that you have experience with? Not at all. Actually, I used briefly Zotero in the past and I really didn't like it or didn't really get into that. I don't know. But right now,

[00:02:55.600] Q: Out of curiosity, how do you manage your bibliography? Do you do it from inside Emacs, or using a separate program like Zotero?

I don't connect that at all. The question after, out of curiosity, how do you manage your bibliography? Do you do it from inside Emacs or using a separate program, ex: Zotero? Because personally, I have struggled to do it from Emacs, though I have wanted to for some time. So the way I manage that is I just have a couple of .bib files that I edit by hand, where I put the reference when I find them. And yeah, I just showed very briefly in the presentation, but the way. One of the great thing with the org reference system is that if you have your bibliographic files that are connected to that system, you can just like, you can put the link, the reference to the paper, like click on it from your org note, and then you can open the PDF. You can open the DOI link to open the whatever publisher page. So no, I don't use Zotero and I just edit bib or bib files by hand in Emacs. I was just going to add something because you know org-roam-bibtex is actually one of the packages that I developed and I got it working with Zotero because for me it was convenient. I was studying humanities and for me it was very easy to connect reference taken in my browser with Zotero and just post-processing them a little bit but it is possible to make org-roam, org-roam-bibtex and Zotero work together. But it's a little bit of an involved process to get everything working in Emacs. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, I guess the way I'm doing it, I understand the appeal for having it integrated in the browser. Maybe that's something I should look up, actually, because right now I just like doing it very much by hand, like going on the publisher page and copying the bibtex block and just using putting that in my file. Yes, it can be not a very efficient workflow on that side. But after that, you're having the PDF and having it inside the note. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. To some extent, it kind of depends on the reference system that is used by the field in which you are or the university in which you're publishing. Because sometimes, you know, you're going to have some basic BibTeX file and sometimes you're going to have better BibTeX files. And those are very different metadata that you need to reconcile. And depending on which LaTeX compiler you're using, be it zLaTeX[??], be it regular LaTeX, lualatex, it's going to be all different. So it's a whole can of worms that I'm not sure we want to be opening now. But if you are interested and if you're not too attached about getting everything right, it's really easy to get started with stuff like org-roam-bibtex. It's supposed to get you most of the way down to a working setup. And if you need to get everything working down to the comma based on your reference system, that's going to be a little harder. But it's possible. I managed to do it and many people actually managed to do it. Okay, anyway, so let's move on to the next

[00:06:22.600] Q: How do you start a new document?

question. All right, so the next question asking how do you start a new document? There are a lot of headers you have to set up. Do you use a template? I'm curious if you use your snippets to deal with all of these LaTeX org metacommands. So I don't use a snippets template of any kind for that. Probably I should. That's actually a good idea. I'm probably going to look into that. No, the way I do actually is I just reuse some previous documents. I copy it, delete all the contents and adjust it until it works the way I like. The main issue in general after that step is to make it work with the template I receive and Let's say if I have some template that needs to work with another LaTeX compiler, I'm probably going to try to copy an existing file that I have that uses the same compiler to save me some work. But yeah, no, I don't use any snippet or something. Probably I should, but I'm just doing it the quick and dirty way to just copy some existing thing.

[00:07:41.720] Q: What do you think of using citar with org-roam-bibtex?

Then what do you think of citar with org-roam-bibtex? It seems that bibtex completion is tied to org-roam-bibtex. I don't know. I never really looked into citar that much. I don't know about that. I don't know either, so I'm not going to be able to help on this one. Because yeah, the bibtex completion is tied to the overall bibtex. I guess so. So what I'm interpreting, because I do, so BibTeX completion is the single motor that drives helm BibTeX and Ivy BibTeX. Perhaps there's another alternative now that is using the Vertico stack for completion. But org-roam-bibtex was interfacing with BibTeX completion to retrieve all the references from a bib file. and I assume citar would be something very similar in a way that it interfaces with a bib file, but I couldn't tell you more. I need to explore a little more and sadly I haven't touched any of this stack in like three years, so I'm a little out of touch. I guess this is what comes with leaving academia to go work as a corporate developer. I'm no longer so interested in the publishing process, even though I'm obviously very appreciative of people who still do, and especially people who use Yeah, same here. I definitely going to look into the citar package to see what's possible. Maybe can be using in some way that is useful for me. Yeah.

[00:09:26.320] Q: Most academic journals insist that papers are formatted in their own custom LaTeX documentclass. Does org-roam make it easy to do that?

And if I go to the next question, so most academic journal insist that paper are formatted in their own custom LaTeX document class. Does org-roam make it easy to do that? The answer is no. That's mostly what I was presenting in the slide. Actually, that's also why I made the presentation, because if someone has a solution, I would gladly take it. No, the way I do it is that I have to add a... I don't have that on top of my head. plus. Yeah, exactly. So I just make a custom org-latex class with the name of the latex template. In general, I think people use that to redefine like stuff like section and subsection, but for me, I just, it shows in the slide where I just map the section to the same section. I just changed the name of the class. And this way it allows to import the, the CLS and then the rest is just like putting the TeX template that is provided either in headers, in LaTeX headers at the top or Yeah, or just on a LaTeX block in the body of the document if that's needed, for example, for the acknowledgement. Sometimes they need some different formatting, but no, it's not really easy because it needs to modify some configuration in Emacs to do that. Then after that, a little bit like manually adapt the templates into your org notes. So that's a little bit some upfront work to do. But once it's done, your notes are going to be exported exactly like the template and you don't have to worry about it. Yeah, it's an interesting topic because the thing about, on one side, you know, you want to have, when you're using LaTeX, it kind of translates into you caring a lot about the document that you produce. Either you care about how quickly you can turn a plain text document into a very nicely formatted PDF at the end, or, you know, you just care about the output of your documents, making sure that everything is properly formatted. We were talking about references just before, you know, the formatting rule for references are highly dependent upon the manual that you're using and, you know, some people really care about this. And what I found in my particular experience, my own personal experience writing for academia, was that I was more in the latter crowd that really cared about the output format and making sure everything was correct and it's really a struggle to get everything working especially when you're transpiling from Org Mode documents straight into LaTeX. You're obviously going to be resorting to a number of hacks to get everything working like Vincent just mentioned with the class or you're going to end up with many imported files just to get everything working, but really you're fighting against the tide if you want to get something a little different from what is shipping with Walmart. Maybe everything has gotten better since I was writing my papers, but generally... Kindly disagree. Yeah, go on. I kindly disagree. I actually, I'm surprised that a lot of template is so complex that you don't just change the document class, but also need to do something else. I'd say it's rather uncommon. I guess it depends on the area of your search. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's it. It just needs CLS and that's all. Yeah, but it really depends on, as you said, on the field in which you're publishing. Some fields are a little more lax with their rules. And just the fact that you can introduce mathematic formulas kind of makes LaTeX the de facto for publishing math documents. But when you're doing humanities, they're more attached to other kinds of formatting. So I think things are much better, anyway, since I started five years ago. Oh, yeah. I have heard from humanities people Microsoft Word. Yes. Sadly, that's the format we're fighting against. Yeah. As for document, yeah, for LaTeX classes, it is a customization and it is the right way to customize this thing, that's all. I'm not sure why it's a hack. It's not a hack. It's an actual user customization. Right. So, we've got about four more minutes of question. Vincent, we've got a couple of Yeah. So I've got a little voice talking in my ear telling me that exactly the same thing. So we've got about two more questions. Vincent, do you want to field them? Sure. So, are

[00:14:21.160] Q: Are you using zotra or org-ref?

you using Zotra (sending some link) or org-ref? No, I don't. I've never heard of Zotra, actually. Looking that very briefly. That's something I'm going to have to look into. Apparently, the short for Zotero translator, so that might be something useful for me since I'm not using Zotero yet, maybe trying to combine. But no, I've never really tried

[00:14:45.120] Q: How much of this is tied to org-roam specifically?

these, but I will. Then the last question, how much of this is tied to Org-roam specifically? Not a lot. Actually apart from the org-roam-bibtex, I think. Maybe I'm mixing up stuff there. But no, not a lot actually. It's just the fact that I'm using that as a in my org-roam system. But apart from that, most of, I mean, actually all of the exports can be done from a normal org-note or any other knowledge management system that you do with org-notes. So no, it's not specifically tied to org-roam, just that that's the way I'm using it. And I'm showing it this way, but yeah, actually the export process can be, can be done with, Yes, specifically tight work room. Yeah, just confirming this, the only way Org Roam intervenes into this process is just referencing bibliography elements. It just kind of intercedes a little bit between what Org Roam usually does. But when it comes to the exports to LaTeX and PDF eventually, that's completely deferring to org exports. So, ox-latex and all of this. So, we are not intervening in any way into this transpiling format. One comment. Yeah, I don't know if I imagine it is, but it looked from the slides that it was our graph was it. Sorry, that it was? org-ref, org-ref. Yes. Because it is a link system for citations. Built-in citations, which is, there is a built-in citation system in art mode. It uses, it doesn't use links. It has a special way to cite things. Yeah, because I believe, yeah, go on please, Vincent. No, I just wanted to say, in that case, I'm using the link with the cite command. I'm not using the org-roam link for the reference. I didn't really show that very carefully. But then, yeah, it's a site element that is exported. So the roam part is just like, you can access the org notes that you have attached to a reference paper. But that's it. Okay, because I was confused by why the bibliography is a link, why style is a link, because it is the approach org-ref uses. Ah, right. Okay, I see. Yeah, the thing is, actually I don't know why, but In my experience, using the org-roam, org-roam-bibtex links doesn't export or doesn't export properly. So like adding them with the org-ref-cite worked better. So that's, that's why I'm using these. If I may interject. If you're using org-ref-cite, you're using org-ref-for-export, which is slightly different. I'm going to interject very quickly because sadly we are a little pressed for time because we are heading into the next discussion. So just very quickly, if you want to continue the discussion, the BBB room is available at emacsconf-org. You can go to the talk and get the link to join the BBB. And the stream will be moving on to the next stream in about 5 to 10 seconds. So I'll see you on the other side. And thank you, Vincent. Thank you. All right, sorry for cutting a little abruptly. It's because we use crontabs to move to the next talk. And sadly, I don't have any leeway on this. So feel free to continue the discussion. I'll be moving on to make sure everything is working. So enjoy the discussion. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.

Questions or comments? Please e-mail vincent.conus@pm.me

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